An ATM for Jesus
October 7th, 2006 | Published in Church, Debt | 15 Comments
In a recent article posted in the LA Times, this church has designed ATM kiosks for their congregation. It’s something new for many churches. And to be honest, our church has wrestled with the idea of online giving, giving by credit card or even check card, for some time now. More specifically, we have wrestled with the idea of debt. This article doesn’t address the idea of people going into debt in order to tithe or give to their church. And if you know anything about the way credit cards and check cards work, the credit acceptance gateways (the systems that vaildate and actually charge your card) don’t distinguish the difference between the two. So even if we decided to accept check cards only, we have no way of NOT allowing credit cards to be used.
Granted, there are a lot of people that use a check card, like myself, to make many of their purchases. All of which come right out of my checking account. I, like most of the people I know personally, don’t really carry much cash in their wallets. The article in the LA Times does address the fact that people don’t carry cash or checks when they come to church, and seeing that 15% of their current operating budget comes from these kiosks, it has been an added benefit.
The church that I attended hosts and leades classes on financial freedom and ways to get out debt. The Bible talks about being debt free and these classes, the Dave Ramsey seminars, help many people learn to use and deal with their finances correctly. Granted, the church is not responsible for making sure everyone handles all of their finances correctly, but are we to encourge those to go into debt or simply provide a means for that to continue? And doesn’t this cross the line of the money changers in the temple when Jesus overturned the tables?
October 9th, 2006 at 7:37 am (#)
I think they are lame…if people can’t figure out how to write a check, or bring cash, or be responsible to honor God with their money (by giving back) then they are retarted. Why are churches constantly coming up with newer and cooler ways for people to give? Because they aren’t giving! People are in sin and are refuse to be obedient with God gave them.
October 9th, 2006 at 3:04 pm (#)
Interesting. I agree with the previous comment that people need to be responsible with what God has given them.
I’ve never thought about people using their credit cards to give and possibly going into debt as a result. That’s interesting to marinate on.
Anyway, here’s a couple questions for you:
If my bank account is set up to automatically write a check each month to the church does that fall into the online giving category or is online giving defined just by the check or credit card?
I know that if I used my credit card to tithe, I would still continue to pay it off each month but I would be accumlating air miles off of those dollars. Would that be wrong?
October 10th, 2006 at 6:18 am (#)
To Jan’s point – I don’t think everyone in the general population is disciplined enough to pay off their credit cards each month. So personally, I think, this is another way to add debt to an ever increasing “Debt Happy Society.” I think the church should stay very far away from this.
October 10th, 2006 at 10:17 am (#)
I have a different take on this from the previous 3 comments. This might get long-winded, so make yourself comfortable.
The world is growing increasingly digital, and therefore it only makes sense to provide a digital means for your members to tithe. I, for one, almost never carry cash, and we only get the checkbook out for things like bills (the ones we can’t pay online) and tithing. I would love it if my church had a way to accept tithes over the internet, and I would use it over writing a check.
To answer kristiapplesauce’s question, churches are not constantly coming up with newer and cooler ways for people to give, but every now and then some churches take advantage of modern technology to make it easier for people to give.
I believe the church’s responsibility is to teach responsible bahavior, not force it. The idea that accepting credit cards encourages irresponsible tithing (if there is such a thing) is the same as the idea that accepting checks is encouraging people to tithe with hot checks. Ultimately, it is up to the individual to use their money responsibly.
Also, since when has the church ever had the problem of people wanting to give too much? Usually, the problem is that people give too little or even nothing at all. I’m pretty sure that people who are irresponsible with their money will not be giving to the church whether or not the church accepts credit cards.
Here’s a hypothetical scenario. I’m coming the end of the month, and I still have a few purchases I need to make along with my tithe. I recognize that I do not have enough in my checking account to cover all of it, so I make my other purchases on a credit card, and pay the church with cash. Is it the church’s fault that I had to put some purchases on credit card? I say no.
So, here’s my solution. Accept credit cards, but put a message on there (wherever you are accepting credit cards) stating the church’s desire that everyone should be responsible with their money, and that the church does not want anyone to go into debt in order to give a tithe.
October 12th, 2006 at 10:26 am (#)
I don’t know…I think that God wouldn’t have us go into debt at all. So if it is for tithe…or something else, it is still debt. At the end of the month, it is still putting it on the credit card. And how much money did the church pay to put those shiny machines in the church lobby? One thousand? Two? It seems so lame to me. I always thought the Bible was clear that you are to give the first fruits…not the last or what was left over.
October 16th, 2006 at 9:18 am (#)
First fruits is a concept that had to do with giving the best of what you have when you are giving crops or cattle. When you are talking about money and 10% of your income, what’s the difference if you give it at the beginning or end of the month? Money is money. The idea of “first fruits” does not apply.
Also, my preferred method of making monetary transactions is to use a card, be it debit or credit. Some people’s preferred method is to write a check. For others, it is cash. Whatever form of payment you use for things, it’s all just money. It’s the individual’s responsibility to use his or her money wisely.
To your point about the cost of the “shiny machines”, how much money does it cost the curch to buy offering plates or offering baskets or whatever your church happens to use? Again, money is money. If spending money on a means of collecting money (offering plate or “shiny machine”) is bad, then buying offering plates is bad.
I am not advocating that people should go into credit card debt. I am just saying that if a church has the resources to give people an option for how they give, then the church should do it.
Finally, and this could be a whole other discussion in and of itself, debt is not an inherently bad thing. I think it is very difficult with scripture to support the claim that God would not have us go into debt at all.
October 20th, 2006 at 9:37 am (#)
Clearly we are just going in circles here. I still believe that God would have us give from the beginning not from what was left over….I wasn’t trying to manipulate scripture to prove my point…my bad on poor language choice. No, I don’t think it matters when we give it (on the first, the 15th or the 30th, January or December); but I would have to argue that God calls us to give not hoard or wait until we can “afford to give”. I read a poll not too long ago that only like 8% of Christians give anyways so it is ridiculous to even have this discussion because believers aren’t giving anyways. On your point of money is money, okay I think a thousand dollar machine that requires maintenance and upkeep is a heck of a lot different then a 15 dollar offering plate…but I guess if people have a problem with it, I have seen offerings taken up in paper sacks. Whatever, I think that conversation is becoming a little legalistic. On the whole debt thing, I think we could discuss that a little further…Romans 13:8 talks about not owing anyone anything, or leave no debt outstanding to anyone (Holman translation).
October 20th, 2006 at 10:35 am (#)
kristi: “but I would have to argue that God calls us to give not hoard or wait until we can “afford to give”"
I agree with you here. I think too often people see their money as their money, not God’s money. The fact is, we only have what we have because God allows us to have it. I think everyone should be faithfully giving to God’s work. You can always afford to give, especially if you see your actual income as 90% of your income. The 10% you should be setting aside for the church was never yours to begin with.
I still disagree with you about whether or not God would let us go into debt, but I think that’s a whole other discussion.
The bottom line, referring back to Rusty’s blog post, is that I don’t believe it is wrong for the church to accept credit/debit cards. I for one would love to be able to pay my tithe online. The ATM thing might be overkill, but I still see nothing wrong with it.
October 20th, 2006 at 2:07 pm (#)
I don’t think that I ever said I thought it is was “wrong” for churches to put the machines in…I said that I thought it was lame. Big difference. But I do think that we are called to be wise with our money and if our church board called a meeting to vote on this…I would vote no, and promtly give my reasons why. Tithing online is a different story.
October 24th, 2006 at 11:26 am (#)
I agree that credit cards should not be accepted by the church. That’s pretty much a given.
But personally, I wouldn’t like the idea of putting an ATM in the church even if it were possible to disallow credit cards.
The Lord has shown us that it is better to give in secret. We already make enough of a show of our donations; the offering plates pass from hand to hand so that each member knows if/how much his neighbor gave (especially if that neighbor uses cash).
On the other hand, an online EFT (which can be tied to a bank account instead of an debit/credit card) would give most of our members the ability to give in secret.
October 25th, 2006 at 4:21 pm (#)
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cheers
October 31st, 2006 at 1:40 pm (#)
jen: “I agree that credit cards should not be accepted by the church. That’s pretty much a given.”
That’s a given? Have you even considered that perhaps it’s not wrong for churches to accept credit cards?
To me, that’s like saying it’s wrong for churches to accept checks, because it encourages people to write hot checks.
November 2nd, 2006 at 6:24 pm (#)
Rusty, My issue with credit cards is rather different from most of the other posts. My issue is the over head incurred by the card processing company. If there were a way for the church to process credit cards WITHOUT a piece of that donation going for the processing overhead, then I would consider it.
However, the above is all said with the intention that I would never place a tithe/donation on a credit card with which I was carrying a balance. I understand that this cannot be the case for everyone. When a card is paid off completely each month, it’s a better financial instrument then a debit card, IMHO.
As far as automatic or ‘online’ payments are concerned: I thought I remembered the church offering an auto-draft program some time in the past. This is how I make all regular payments to missions groups. Works great.
Alternatively, many banks now offer ‘free online checking’ including ‘automatic bill paying’. (This a service that Quicken and many banks used to charge for.) I have found in several instances that companies will convert a paper check to an EFT (Electronic Funds Transfer) and then send the payment through their bank. My bank/credit union also allows me to set these EFT payments on a monthly schedule.
I don’t know if all banks offering online EFT features do this, but mine will send a paper check to any company it does not already have an EFT connection with. So, on the rare occation I need to send a check to a friend (shared costs on a ski trip or something), I just do it online. Pretty cool. I don’t even have to mess with a stamp.
November 5th, 2006 at 6:33 pm (#)
theo, that was the best comment yet…I agree with everything you just said.
November 28th, 2006 at 1:37 pm (#)
Bub, just wanted to drop a line and say thanks for spreading the word about Dave Ramsey and debt freedom. The best debt is no debt. Way to go, and thanks for working for The Man Upstairs. http://www.debtective.com